Debate between Clinton and Obama

Date: Friday, February 01, 2008 2:12 AM

<<<<< JOB DESTRUCTION NEWSLETTER No. 1815 -- 1/31/2008 >>>>>

Clinton and Obama had their first one-on-one debate tonight. When the subject
of immigration came up Obama made a major blunder. It began when Obama denied
that African-American workers were adversely affected by immigrants and he
resorted to calling those that see a connection as scapegoaters.

SEN. OBAMA:
And so I think to suggest somehow that the problem that we're seeing,
in inner city unemployment for example, is attributable to
immigrants, I think, is a case of scapegoating that I do not believe
in, I do not subscribe to. (Cheers, applause.)

It didn't take long for Obama to totally contradict himself:

SEN. OBAMA:
I also believe we have to give a pathway to citizenship, after they
have paid a fine and learned English, to those who are already here.
Because if we don't, they will continue to undermine U.S. wages.

Uh, let's see if I got this straight: Obama said that immigrants don't affect
African Americans, but they do undermine wages in the United States.
So if wages are undermined by immigrants wouldn't that affect African
Americans? Fact is, immigration affects African Americans disproportionately.
To learn more about this phenomenon read "Heaven's
Door: Immigration Policy and the American Economy" By George J. Borjas which
is available in its entirety on Google. Somebody ought to give a copy of the
book to Obama!

Clinton didn't mention African Americans but was far more lucid about the
negative affects of illegal immigrants on the workforce.

SEN. CLINTON:
Well, let me start with the original question from Kim (sp), because
I think it deserves an answer. I believe that in many parts of our
country, because of employers who exploit undocumented workers and
drive down wages, there are job losses. And I think we should be
honest about that. (Applause.) There are people who have been pushed
out of jobs in factories and meat processing plants and all kinds of
settings.

Both of them acknowledge that immigration has a negative impact on wages,
although for some reason Obama seemed totally insensitive to the plight of
African Americans. Unfortunately both of them think the solution to the
problem is to give amnesty to illegal aliens, and to allow mass immigration as
long as the ones coming here do it legally.

CLINTON:
Well, I just have to correct the record for one second, because
obviously we do agree about the need to have comprehensive
immigration reform.

OBAMA: I agree.

When you get right down to it, Clinton and Obama think that as long as illegal
aliens (oops, I mean "those who are undocumented"!) are made legal then wages
won't be depressed and workers won't get displaced. Neither of them understand
the laws of supply-and-demand in the labor market.

If this debate is any indication, Clinton and Obama are totally clueless on
immigration, which would put them right in the mainstream of the Democratic
and Republican parties. This question was a good one. See if you can figure
out the answer because neither of them did:

MCMANUS:
Senator Clinton, ....
when most voters look at the two of you, they don't see a lot of
daylight between you on policy. So what I'd like to ask is, what
do you consider the most important policy distinction between
the two of you?

Some of you might be thinking I'm giving the Republicans a free pass on the
immigration/labor issue. You are right, I am! That's because the Republican
candidates had a debate the night before the Dems but there was almost no
discussion of immigration, and when there was it amounted to a few platitudes
about fences on the border and a few assurances that they would do something
about illegal immigration.

Basically when it comes to immigration, choosing between Democrats and
Republicans is just a matter of choosing what poison you want to choke on.

You can read what little the Republicans had to say about immigration by going
here:

http://www.sacbee.com/812/story/675804.html

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/us/politics/31text-debate.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

MR. BLITZER: All right, Jeanne.

MS. CUMMINGS: On immigration. The Republicans have had a pretty fierce debate
over immigration, and it's now pretty clear that that's going to be an issue
for you-all as well, not just in the general, but it's bubbled up in some of
the primaries. And it's a divisive issue for you-all as it is for the
Republicans. And that was pretty evident when we got a question through
Politico.

This is from Kim Millman (sp) from Burnsville, Minnesota. And she says:
"There's been no acknowledgement by any of the presidential candidates of the
negative economic impact of immigration on the African-American community. How
do you propose to address the high unemployment rates and the declining wages
in the African-American community that are related to the flood of immigrant
labor?"

Senator Obama, you want to go first on that? And it's for both of you-all.

SEN. OBAMA: Well, let me first of all say that I have worked on the streets of
Chicago as an organizer, with people who've been laid off from steel plants --
black, white, Hispanic, Asian -- and all of them are feeling economically
insecure right now, and they have been for many years. Before the latest round
of immigrants showed up, you had huge unemployment rates among African-
American youth.

And so I think to suggest somehow that the problem that we're seeing, in inner
city unemployment for example, is attributable to immigrants, I think, is a
case of scapegoating that I do not believe in, I do not subscribe to. (Cheers,
applause.)

And this is where we do have a very real difference with the other party. I
believe that we can be a nation of laws and a nation of immigrants.

Now, there is no doubt that we have to get control of our borders. We can't
have hundreds of thousands of people coming over to the United States without
us having any idea who they are. I also believe that we do have to crack down
on those employers that are taking advantage of the situation, hiring folks
who cannot complain about worker conditions, who aren't getting the minimum
wage sometimes or aren't getting overtime. We have to crack down on them. I
also believe we have to give a pathway to citizenship, after they have paid a
fine and learned English, to those who are already here. Because if we don't,
they will continue to undermine U.S.
wages.

But let's understand more broadly that the economic problems that African
Americans are experiencing, whites are experiencing, blacks and Latinos are
experiencing in this country are all rooted in the fact that we have had an
economy out of balance. We've had tax cuts that went up instead of down. We
have had a lack of investment in basic infrastructure in this country. Our
education system is chronically underfunded.

(Applause.) And so there are a whole host of reasons why we have not been
generating the kinds of jobs that we are generating. We should not use
immigration as a -- as a tactic to divide. Instead we should pull the country
together to get this economy back on track. That's what I intend to do as
president of the United States of America.

(Applause.)

MR. BLITZER: Senator Clinton, now we're going to stay on the subject, but
Doyle has a follow-up.

MR. MCMANUS: Senator Clinton, Senator Obama has said that he favors allowing
illegal immigrants to obtain drivers' licenses, and you oppose that idea. Why?

SEN. CLINTON: Well, let me start with the original question from Kim (sp),
because I think it deserves an answer. I believe that in many parts of our
country, because of employers who exploit undocumented workers and drive down
wages, there are job losses. And I think we should be honest about that.
(Applause.) There are people who have been pushed out of jobs in factories and
meat processing plants and all kinds of settings. And I meet them. You know, I
was in Atlanta last night, and an African-American man said to me, "I used to
have a lot of construction jobs, and now it just seems like the only people
who get them anymore are people who are here without documentation."

So I -- I know that what we have to do is to bring our country together to
have a comprehensive immigration reform solution. That is the answer.
(Applause.)

And it is important that we make clear to Kim and people who are worried about
this that that is actually in the best interests of those who are concerned
about losing their jobs or already have, because if we can tighten our
borders, if we can crack down on employers who exploit workers
-- both those who are undocumented and those who are here as citizens or legal
-- if we can do more to help local communities cope with the costs that they
often have to contend with, if we do more to help our friends to the south
create more jobs for their own people, and if we take what we know to be the
realities that we confront -- 12 (million) to 14 million people here -- what
will we do with them? Well, I hear the voices from the other side of the
aisle, I hear the voices on TV and radio, and they are living in some other
universe, talking about deporting people, rounding them up. I don't agree with
that, and I don't think it's practical.

And therefore, what we've got to do is to say come out of the shadows, we will
register everyone. We will check, because if you have committed a crime in
this country or the country you came from, then you will not be able to stay;
you will have to be deported. But for the vast majority of people who are
here, we will give you a path to legalization if you meet the following
conditions.

Pay a fine because you entered illegally. Be willing to pay back taxes over
time. Try to learn English, and we have to help you do that, because we've cut
back on so many of those services. And then you wait in line.

That not only is, I think, the best way to approach the problem of our 12
(million) to 14 million who are here, but that also says to Kim, Kim, this is
the best answer as well. Because once we have those conditions met, and people
agree, then they will not be in a labor market that undercuts anybody else's
wages.

MR. BLITZER: Senator.

SEN. CLINTON: And therefore it's imperative we approach it this way. Only
after people have agreed to these conditions, Doyle, and that they have been
willing to say yes, they will meet those conditions, do I think we ought to
talk about privileges like driver's licenses. Because otherwise I think you
will further undermine the labor market for people like the ones Kim is
referring to. We need to solve this problem, not exacerbate it, and that's
what I intend to do as president. (Applause.)

MR. BLITZER: All right.

We have a follow-up, Senator Obama. In an interview with CNN this week, you
said this. You said, quote, "I stood up for a humane and intelligent
immigration policy in a way that frankly none of my other opponents did."
What did you mean by that?

SEN. OBAMA: Well, what I meant was that when this issue came up, not driver's
license but comprehensive immigration reform generally, I worked with Ted
Kennedy, I worked with Dick Durbin, I worked with John McCain -- although he
may not admit it now -- (laughter) -- to move this issue forward aggressively.

And it's a hard political issue, let's be honest. This is not an issue that
polls well. But I think it is the right thing to do. And I think we have to
show leadership on the issue. (Applause.)

And it is important for us, I believe, to recognize that the problems that
workers are experiencing generally are not primarily caused by immigration.

MR. BLITZER: But --

SEN. OBAMA: (Inaudible.)

MR. BLITZER: -- are you -- (inaudible) -- Senator Clinton's policy was not, in
your words, humane?

SEN. OBAMA: That is -- what I said was that we have to stand up for these
issues when it's tough. And that's what I've done. I did it when I was in the
state legislature, sponsoring the Illinois version of the DREAM Act, so that
children who were brought here through no fault of their own are able to go to
college, because we actually want well-educated kids -- (applause)
-- in our country who are able to -- who are able to succeed and become part
of this economy and part of the American dream.

MR. BLITZER: Was she lacking on that front?

SEN. OBAMA: Wolf, you keep on trying to -- trying to push on --

MR. BLITZER: I'm just trying to find out what you mean.

SEN. OBAMA: There are those who were opposed to this issue and there have been
those who have flipped on the issue and have run away from the issue.

This wasn't directed particularly at Senator Clinton, but the fact of the
matter is, I have stood up consistently on this issue.

On the driver's license issue, I don't actually want -- I don't believe that
we're going to have to deal with this if we have comprehensive immigration
reform because, as I said before, people don't come here to drive, they come
here to work. (Applause.) And if we have signed them up -- if they have -- if
we have registered them, if they have paid a fine, if they are learning
English, if they are going to the back of the line, if we fix our legal
immigration system, then I believe we will not have this problem of
undocumented workers in this country because people will be able to actually
go on pathway to citizenship. That, I think, is the right approach for
African- Americans, I think it's the right approach for Latinos, I think it's
the right approach for white workers here in the United States as well.
(Applause.)

MR. BLITZER: I want to let --

SEN. CLINTON: Well, Wolf --

MR. BLITZER: -- Senator Clinton respond, but were you missing in action when
Senator Obama and Senator McCain and Senator Kennedy started formulating
comprehensive immigration reform?

SEN. CLINTON: Well, actually, I cosponsored comprehensive immigration reform
in 2004, before Barack came to the Senate. (Cheers, applause.) So I have been
on record on behalf of this for quite some time.

And you know, representing New York, the homeland with the Statue of Liberty
bringing all of our immigrants to our shores has been not only an
extraordinary privilege, but given me the opportunity to speak out on these
issues. When the House of Representatives passed the most mean-spirited
provision that said if you were to give any help whatsoever to someone here
illegally, you would commit a crime, I stood up and said that would have
criminalized the Good Samaritan and Jesus Christ himself. (Applause.)

I have been on record on this, against this kind of demagoguery, this mean-
spiritedness.

And you know, it is something that I take very personally, because I have not
only worked on behalf of immigrants, I have been working to make conditions
better for many years. I was so honored to get the farm workers'
endorsement last week -- (applause) -- because for so many years I have stood
with farm workers, who do some of the hardest work there is anywhere in our
country.

So we may be looking at the immigration reform issue as a political issue.
And it certainly has been turned into one by those who I think are undermining
the values of America.

It is a -- a -- a serious question. We have to fix this broken system. But
let's do it in a practical, realistic approach. Let's bring people together.
And I think as president I can. You know, I've been going to town halls all
over America, and I see the people out there, thousands of them, who come to
hear me, and you know, they're nervous about immigration, and for the reasons
that the economy isn't working for people.

The average American family has lost a thousand dollars in income. They're
looking for some explanation as to why this is happening. And they often ask
exactly the kind of question that Kim asked, with a real edge or a real, you
know, amount of anxiety in their voice. And then I ask them, well, what would
you do?

If you want to round up and deport people, how many tens of thousands of
federal law enforcement officials would that take? And how much authority
would they have to be given to knock on every door of every business and every
home? I don't think Americans would stand for that, so we have to get
realistic and practical about this. (Applause.)

MR. BLITZER: Very quickly Senator, why not then, if you're that passionate
about it, let them get driver's licenses?

SEN. CLINTON: Well, we disagree on this.

I do not think that it is either appropriate to give a driver's license to
someone who's here undocumented, putting them frankly at risk, because that is
clear evidence that they are not here legally. And I believe it is a diversion
from what should be the focus at creating a political coalition with the
courage to stand up and change the immigration system. (Applause.)

SEN. OBAMA: The only point I would make is, Senator Clinton gave a number of
different answers over the course of six weeks on this issue, and that did
appear political.

Now, you know, at this point she's got a clear position, but it took a while.
(Applause.) And --

SEN. CLINTON: Well --

SEN. OBAMA: I'm just being -- just in fairness, initially in a debate you said
you were for it. Then you said you were against it. And the only reason I
bring that up is to underscore the fact that this is a difficult political
issue.

From my perspective, I agree with Bill Richardson that there is a public
safety concern here and that we're better off -- because I don't want a bunch
of hit-and-run drivers because they're worried about being deported and so
they don't report an accident. That is a judgment call. (Scattered
applause.)

But I do think it is important to recognize that this can be tough. And the
question is, who is going to tackle this problem and solve it? Many of the
solutions that Senator Clinton just talked about are solutions that I agree
with, that I've been working on for many years. And my suspicion is, whatever
our differences, we're going to have big differences with the Republicans. But
I think a practical, common-sense solution to the problem is what the American
people are looking for.

SEN. CLINTON: Well, I just have to correct the record for one second, because
obviously we do agree about the need to have comprehensive immigration reform.
And if I recall, about a week after I said that I would try to support my
governor, although I didn't agree with it personally, you were asked the same
question and could not answer it. So this is a difficult issue. (Applause.)
And both of us have to recognize that it is not something that we easily come
to, because we share a lot of the same values.

SEN. OBAMA: I agree.

SEN. CLINTON: We want to be fair to people. We want to respect the dignity of
every human being, every person who is here. But we are trying to work our way
through to get to where we need to be, and that is to have a united Democratic
Party with fair-minded Republicans who will join us to fix this broken
immigration system. (Applause.)

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